As Talent Is Timeless enters its milestone fifth year, we’re facing questions that songwriters of previous generations never had to consider. When does technological assistance cross the line from being a tool to becoming something that fundamentally changes the nature of songwriting itself? And more broadly, is this separation of AI and human creativity a sign of things to come across all creative fields?
The music industry has always evolved with technology. From multi-track recording to synthesizers, from drum machines to digital audio workstations, each innovation has been met with both excitement and concern. But AI presents unique challenges that go beyond anything we’ve seen before.
Let’s be honest about what’s at stake. A song created primarily through AI can simulate emotional depth without the years of lived experience that typically inform songwriting. It can mimic styles and create convincing melodies without the countless hours of practice, the late nights struggling with lyrics, or the hard-won mastery of an instrument. This raises profound questions about authenticity and artistic truth.
Consider the human connections we’ve built through Talent Is Timeless. Our community of over 18,000 songwriters shares not just music, but life stories, struggles, triumphs, and genuine emotional experiences. When AI enters this space, it can create a facade of connection that feels hollow once the truth is known.
However, we must also acknowledge that technology, including AI, can be a valuable tool for creative expression. Many of our members already use digital tools like Band in a Box for backing tracks, or pitch correction to polish their vocals. These tools have become standard parts of the modern songwriter’s toolkit. The question isn’t whether to use technology, but how to use it transparently and ethically. We believe AI-assisted music can be valid and valuable as its own art form, but it should not be presented as something it’s not.
“I love what this conversation raises, I’m so excited about it. The real nub of it for me is that it points out that no matter how imperfect you feel you are – your voice, looks, songs, guitar playing – whatever. It’s still much more special than a perfect performance by a robot. I’m unusual for a musician in that I barely ever listen to recorded music. What I value is live music. Performed in an unrepeatable real moment, live. Even when I record my albums, we seek to capture that ‘live’ energy by recording the majority of it as a live session.
People are gonna hate me for this, but I once conducted a £95,000 experiment about on this by accident (before you come for me with pitchforks – this was covered by the record deal). I recorded my album ‘Where Are We Heading’ track by track during the lockdown at Abbey Road Studios with top musicians. The executive producer wasn’t happy with it, and we re-recorded the entire album 3 more times to completion (hence the cost). One of the times we recorded it live, inside Studio 3, where all the musicians could play at once. We have since blind tested two versions of the album – the one performed live, and the one recorded track by track. You can think of this as either a photograph of a live scene, capturing the creativity and imperfections, vs a paint by numbers piece.
Not a single person has ever said that the ‘paint by numbers’ version was better. That was a definitive moment for me. I have never recorded track by track for my own artist profile again, preferring instead to bring in players who equally value live creativity, and want to capture an energy rather than a perfect performance. That’s what you’re hearing on all my latest tracks. Live, joyful, imperfect, real recordings.
I suspect the conversation around AI music and songs will make it very clear to people that ‘real’ and ‘flawed’ is preferable to ‘polished’ and ‘inauthentic’. I’m not saying we can’t use tech tools – I love them and use them every day, but there is one realm where they are not for me and that’s the realm of relationships and life. “– Saskia Griffiths-Moore, Talent Is Timeless.
Our solution? For our annual contest, we’re creating a dedicated AI category. This decision serves two purposes: it provides a legitimate space for AI-assisted creativity while preserving the integrity of our traditional categories. It’s like creating separate wings in an art gallery – each valuable in its own right, but distinctly different in nature.
This is our appraoch for the 5th annual Talent Is Timeless contest:
We’re creating a separate category for AI-assisted songs in our competitions
We’re requiring clear disclosure of AI use in all submitted works
We’re maintaining our traditional categories for human-created songs
This approach allows us to embrace new technology while preserving the integrity of traditional songwriting.
What constitutes AI assistance? Here’s our current thinking:
Using Band in a Box or similar tools for backing tracks: Acceptable in traditional categories
Basic audio processing and pitch correction: Acceptable in traditional categories
AI-generated melodies, lyrics, or complete songs: Must be entered in the AI category
AI voice synthesis or extensive vocal processing: Must be entered in the AI category
We want to hear from our community about these guidelines. How do you use technology in your songwriting? Where do you think the lines should be drawn?
“While AI promises the creators tools to greatly streamline the process of creation, amplifying their inspiration and making hitherto complicated tasks a breeze, I’d rather keep the actual creation of music within the human realm. Music for me music is about authentic story telling, human relationships and gaining an insight into things the word or thought alone cannot grasp. And that, in my mind is a uniquely human domain, for now.” – Kris Gorksi, Producer
For our monthly challenges, we’re taking a more exploratory approach. We’ll welcome AI-assisted songs alongside traditional entries, requiring only clear labeling of AI involvement. This mirrors how we previously evolved to distinguish between new and catalogue songs – allowing the community’s needs to guide our categorization naturally.
The reality is that this separation between human and AI-created work may become the new normal across all creative fields. Just as Olympic sports have different categories for different classes of competition, creative endeavors might evolve to explicitly distinguish between purely human-created works and those with significant AI assistance.
But here’s what technology can never replicate: the electricity of performing to a live audience, the genuine connection between artist and listener, the shared human experience that makes music so powerful. You can have a million AI listeners or bot farms that stream your music, but they’ll never equal the impact of even having just one person in the audience, really listening to you.
Remember, the heart of Talent Is Timeless has always been about authentic creative expression by songwriters over 50. As we navigate these new waters, we’re committed to maintaining that authenticity while embracing the possibilities that new technology brings.
We can be curious about AI’s creative potential while still honoring the irreplaceable value of human creativity and connection. After all, even when we’re playing with AI tools, it’s still humans making the creative choices, humans sharing their stories, and humans forming relationships around this new form of expression. Whether a song is created with an acoustic guitar or the latest AI tool, it’s the human heart behind it that truly matters.
Let’s continue this conversation together, openly and honestly. Share your thoughts and experiences in the comments below.
AI and Music Technology: Drawing Lines in the Sand
Having read your article and comments, particularly around the competition, It seems to me that you’ve struck the right balance. AI is here to stay and we can embrace the elements that suit us, to enhance our work or not. Having a specific category is a good idea (There could be a zillion entries for that)! It’s also good that we can acknowledge any AI input into traditional category.
I can’t see me using AI to create either lyrics or melodies, but it’s always good to have options. Very much looking forward to the next chapter.
Thanks Cath. Someone actually wrote to me recently and offered to teach us more about it. I am skeptical of any AI in the realm of music, but I’m curious too! AI input will not be allowed in the traditional categories in the annual contest, but for now we will allow it in the monthly challenges as long as they are clearly labelled. I hope we can all approach this with a fun sense of curiousity.
Apologies, I confused the competition and challenge re AI input. I try to embrace change always (even when it feels painful) it’s usually a great learning experience
Ok, so I get that this is probably all down to me and my introduction of AI generated music and vocals, but hey, it was going to happen at some point right?
I can see both sides to be honest.
If AI was just about producing a complete song without any major input by the producer (which can be the case) then personally, I would have no interest in it whatsoever.
But it isn’t.
I love writing lyrics, but again, wouldn’t bother if I was unable to transform them into song.
I don’t sing and I don’t play an instrument, however, at 70yrs of age, I am so happy to say that music has kept me motivated to deal with whatever life throws at me and keeps us ‘all’ young, doesn’t it. Hell, only a couple of weeks ago I was out with 15 people of more than half my age and I was dancing away with the best of them and staying young and that is part of life my friends.
I would never consider creating songs that are ‘fully’ AI generated..just no point to me.
Of course live music will always supersede anything that AI can produce (for now) however, as Saskia points out, it can’t draw on one’s own life experiences to create the emotion you may want to portray when writing your own lyrics…or can it?
The beauty of it for me is that as AI develops, you can instruct it to produce more and more to match you vision, including; Style of music (genre’s) type of voice..male or female..what instruments you wish to include, (or, leave out ) melodies..tones…emotions..moods.etc…You can instruct it when to take a musical break within your song and add a bridge to a verse if required. It is truly amazing.
As I have previously mentioned, I only started writing lyrics in Oct and now have a 50 song
library. This was far from easy as over 2200 versions of what I was trying to achieve were trashed by me. Starting to write at 9am in the morning and still trying to complete a song at 3am, which I do on a regular basis, should indicate that as long as you are writing your own lyrics, the amount of time spent getting to the end result is probably just as satisfying as that which an artist would feel.
All you guys who write, play, sing and produce your own songs are amazing and you feel great when you complete your song, right? Well, I’m here to inform you that I know how you feel!
Yes, the best lyrics are made up of one’s own life experiences and I have written some pretty harrowing songs, believe me, but that doesn’t always result in a great song, regardless of the applied music imo.
Indeed, apart from artists like Adele, as an example, most hit songs today are made up of pretty rubbish lyrics, which is such a shame.
Look, I totally get, that Talent is Timeless may not have envisioned, or, thought of, the possible requirement to branch into AI as well, I mean, who knew? Right?
For me I do not like the idea of fully produced AI songs including AI lyrics, but of course I do advocate that AI is a massive influence in the music world already.
Final opinion…not easy to police, but I would support AI songs to be included on this site, but only if song lyrics are produced by the member.
All very interesting though, isn’t it.
I’m interested to know whether you or the AI creates the melody. Are you the Bernie Taupin to AI’s Elton John, or do you create the melody and then get the AI to perform it in your chosen style of band and singer?
Hey Rob.
Wouldn’t it be great to be another Bernie Taupin (in the AI sense of course). You can create melodies and instruct AI give you as many different samples as that (when you become a paid member..around £25pm) and you can also change the style of voice, tones etc….but I’m not techy enough to have learnt how to master that as yet. So, I instruct as to the genre, which you can tweak after every version that is produced, until you are happy. You can also tell it what instruments to include..the type of melody (and hope for the best) etc..and even mid song, you can change instruments. Apparently, it is also possible to overlay music to your lyrics from 2 completely different AI music generators..again too techy for at the mo.
Rick – I understand the reasons why as a lyric-writing non-musician you should want to use AI software. I appreciate the time you are putting into the process to produce the songs, and I accept that there is plenty of input from you. However, I don’t think you should dismiss the idea that you are too old to produce your own real music. I’m a 73 year old, and I’ve only been writing and performing the last few years. I know a number of people of my age who have taken up a simple instrument like a ukulele, and have successfully written songs. If you don’t have any trust in your singing ability, you could get someone else to do the singing. Making music with others is in my view the greatest pleasure.
Thanks for the encouragement Paul.
I tried to play guitar when I was a boy and was improving, but then life stuff took over and I never went back to it. These days, my fat arthritic fingers would make it a real challenge. My stepson has the gift though..he taught himself to play the guitar and piano, proficiently, in only 6 months. He’s going to be a star at some point. I used to have a fair singing voice as well and probably wasted opportunities back then.
This current venture is giving me great pleasure however and indeed, only last night, I finished a song which is probably my fav to date and that, is def a great feeling.
Good luck with all if your future compositions Paul.
A good article. Personally, I am not a fan of AI in any creative pursuit. It is starting to creep into not only music but photography, video and writing, too. As a photographer myself, I had to earn my LDPS post-nominals. As a musician, I had to earn my ABRSM certificates. These skills took years of dedication. Granted that I use a computer to polish these skills, which wasn’t available when I started and can be a valuable tool in the toolbox. However, I wouldn’t like to see AI overtaking talent and creativity.
I also hardly ever listen to recorded music, I way prefer the interaction of musician to audience, whether I’m the one on stage or the one listening. Thanks for being so thoughtful about this. I never use pitch correction, even if maybe I’m singing a little flat once in awhile. I prefer gritty honesty, personally. In fact, when I hear pitch correction in a recording, I tend to skip over it to the next song…boy, am I ever biased!! I just can’t stand the sound of perfection, I find it so boring. I’d rather hear someone taking it to the limit of their ability than someone playing it safe. I know that’s just me, I’ve had this discussion with many people. Conclusion: I’m glad there is a separate category for AI, I’ll NEVER use it, but I don’t want to put down anyone who does. It’s just not for me personally.
Thank you Saskia. I totally endorse that the energy of live recorded music captures something intangibly magical. I’m so glad the subject of AI has and is continuing to be addressed. I am also really pleased that the competition has made provisions for this too and that it has been handled so well. Sorry for the very long comment, however this is something I feel very strongly about. It’s interesting to hear that Rick feels he probably gets the same satisfaction after spending a great deal of time and effort completing his song and I am glad to hear that. I have been very much against AI in this capacity, without having enough knowledge or experience to verify my feelings about it. However, recently, I used a website which gave me the opportunity to explore and produce a 60 second song using basic tools free of charge. If I wanted to buy the complete version, then I would need to pay but it’s not a great deal. It’s my only experience, so I can’t report on other more adept and versatile software. My AI experience shook me as I was really pleased with it, however, it didn’t remotely touch the satisfaction and fulfillment or excitement I felt when I composed a complete song of my own. It wasn’t written musically or lyrically in the way would write. (I could chose between 2 genres). However, I could hear it had the potential to be more commercially appealing to the general public than my own songs would and if I pursued this way of writing, I would be much more confident that these songs would draw in more interest, be more popular and be more widely heard. However, AI really doesn’t cut it for me, even though lyrically the AI song, was more succinct and expressed what I wanted to say perfectly (I put in several words & phrases) – and the melody was catchy and more commercially appealing than I could have written. From my perspective, this would be a great way of me learning how to write more commercial songs and pick up tips from AI in this way but I could do this with any non AI generated song I wanted to learn from. However, this isn’t what drives me to write. I write to hit that magic spot inside me that makes me light up for weeks after I’ve written a song, as I sing it and perform it and that for me cannot be replicated by using AI as it’s not my own independent achievement, which is what gives me the buzz. However, I do believe that the industry is already infiltrated by many AI songs, I can often sense a certain type of sound or feeling it gives me that I know does not come directly from a human. I feel the success and money making side of this for artists will be very appealing and effective. From my perspective, music comes from the heart and soul, and this connection is lost when using this technology, it loses an unquantifiable quality that touches a deep part of the human psyche. The vibration of music can be very healing (scientifically proven) and I would be interested to learn of future experiments using AI produced songs to ascertain if this would still be the case. There is no doubt that this the direction the industry is heading and maybe in time AI will be able to generate a genuine sense of human emotions with it’s creations, if it hasn’t already, or as it’s constantly refined. I haven’t enough knowledge or experience to comment beyond what I have yet to experience.
Thanks Saskia for recognising the issues around this and taking prompt steps to set out some rules around it.
I’d just like to throw in a little of my own opinion on the matter and in particular how I feel it relates to TisT.
I have only been here a few months but my main reason for joing was that this site is all about song-writing … I see that as a discipline very distinct from arrangement, production, recording or even performance and musicianship.
Look at how many fantastic songs that have been written by those who never had or even tried to have careers as musicians or performers, let alone as arrangers, producers or mixing engineers.
My point is that is we are really focusing on songwriting here then we shouldnt worry at all if we can’t play an instrument or cant sing, and cant produce or record. And therefore it shouldnt matter at all if we chose to use other tools to do that part of the work for us. Yes I am taking the argument one step further to say that I don’t have any objection to AI being used even to generate a sung vocal line … as long as the lyrics and melody it is singing were written by a human, this is really not too far removed from the songwriter hiring a session vocalist to create their demo …
Where the line is drawn for me, is if the lyrics or melody of a song are created by articificial means. I know you have spoken, Saskia, about how wonderful it is to hear a live performance, but that is actually a step beyond the writing of the song. In my opinion, if this site is purely about songwriting, then it should concern itself with whether the writer has created the melody and the lyrics (if it is not an instrumental!), and to some extent the arrangement (in terms of chords and harmonies) – but after that point, it shouldnt really matter who or what is used to perform, produce, and engineer the final product. As purely songwriters we are essentially creating demos of our work in order to get it heard – if we need to use certain tools or hire other people to achieve that, then fine, as long as we the humans write the tune and words, then we are the songwriters ….
Interesting comments from you guys and I totally get, understand and appreciate all of them. Opinion diversity can be a wonderful thing. I do completely agree that AI is in no way comparable to human performance and it’s pretty likely that if I could play and/or sing, I would be totally against it. It is incredibly concerning where AI in general is leading our planet, let alone our music.
I’m not convinced that appreciating flaws in what is produced would sit well with me though, if I was in the position of being a singer/songwriter. If my main goal was/is to share music and to hopefully bring a feelgood vibe to the listener, as well as myself, then I’d want the end result to sound the best quality that it could. It’s all well and good to accept our flaws, but I wouldn’t want to share those flaws with others, if I could help it.
Writing a song does not have to be about being the full package in one’s endevours as a songwriter. Nobody said that you must be able to produce your own music, melodies, tones and genre’s to become a lyricist..that’s just a very biased sounding opinion to me.
Again, I have to say, that I am a novice as far as AI is concerned and I ‘am’ against it in general terms.
However, there is a bigger picture here that none of us can change and consequently, platforms like this one gives you guys the opportunity to continue expressing your music in the hard earned way that it always has been. Clearly the over 50’s brigade ( understandably) prefer to keep it that way and nobody should be able to take that away from you.
In 20 years time though, the nostalgia surrounding that thinking, is going to apply to AI produced music. You don’t have to agree with it, or, like it, but it’s going to happen.
So, I will continue to be somewhat selfish in making my life more bearable by writing lyrics and using AI assistance to help me feel like I’m not too old to acomplish some self satisfaction in my life.
Rick, I feel that some of your comments were directed towards me so I would like to take this chance to clarify my meaning some more.
You say that being “able to produce your own music, melodies, tones and genre’s to become a lyricist” is a biased opinion … but that isnt the opinion that I expressed at all.
What I said was to be called a songwriter you must create as a minimum a melody (and lyrics if the song is not an instrumental).
In saying that I am purely talking about the definition of the word ‘songwriter’ , and am making no value judgement about the skills or artistry of a lyricist versus a composer.
There are many many awesome lyricists, ranging from Oscar Hammerstein, through Tim Rice and Bernie Taupin – but they would not call themselves songwriters.
Again I will make the point that I am not saying songwriters or composers are any greater in any way than lyricists, and I personally think your own lyrics are fantastic. So let’s get away from this idea that I am saying you are “lesser” than anyone else here because you don’t write music. My point remains, that this site has been primarily a “songwriting” site, and that means to most people what I have defined above. That was the initial reason that I asked you to make it clear that you were the lyricist in your works rather than taking credit in the comments for all the people praising your musical composition.
You seem to have assumed I have said you have to be able to play an instrument, sing, arrange, produce and engineer your work, but read my post again and you will see I have specifically said you do not need to do that.
I never intended to cause an arument here, but I do feel you have taken me out of context and I hope I have now clarified my points.
Finally to answer you point about AI being the future, I have never once denied this. I have worked in technology all my life, both in music studios and software development, and I use AI to create videos to accompany my songs. Studio technology has automated many engineering tasks (often spearheded by innovations of great engineers, likethose amazing guys at Abbey Road) but now that it starts to encroach into songwriting, we start to get a little worried …. We have seen many changes in the music industry since most of us were first writing and/or performing and will continue to see changes, wherether or not anyone sees them for the better or worse.
You call yourself a young 70, personally I am an ancient grumpy old 62 who, whilst happy to embrace what may come after I’m gone, still prefer to have clarity about things are and I think that is what this debate os bringing about. So please don’t take things as personal digs at you, we are all artists and all (i suspect) to a greater or lesser extent a little precious about our work 😉
Thanks Saskia, perfect response and the plans for the Competition to enable a level playing field seem appropriate. I have read the responses below and can appreciate all the opinions, there does need to be a place of course for lyricists who are not musicians. I personally love the editing process when writing lyrics to fit the melody, and would hate to be able to press a button and it is done automatically!
I think the approach you are taking makes sense and ensures it is clear what we are listening to and how it has been produced. As a singer and guitar player who always composes by writing the music first and lyrics second I don’t see me using AI any time soon but I can see the attraction for lyric writers who don’t sing/play.
Saskia, I like the idea of the addition of a separate AI category. I, like your live vs paint by numbers test group, prefer the energy that comes from live performances. I was happy to hear you addressing this issue. When I hear someone say they are playing an original, I assume they wrote the song in it’s entirety – lyrics, melody, rhythm, etc. It makes sense to separate the categories. Good solution.
I’ve been a little upset with this topic ever since a friend showed me how he completed a book using CHATGPT to complete some of his writing. I thought, “then you’re not writing it. Publish it under CHATGPT, it’s not yours.” There are some great bands out there that have to use autotune because their main writer/singer can’t hold a tune, but man can they write, so I don’t really have a problem with that. But when it reaches the point where the AI is singing for you, I have a bit of a problem.
Is it cool … hell yeah, it’s very interesting, but, as you so nicely put in your article, there’s nothing like a live band in a studio and the warmth that you feel from those recordings of talented musicians all working together.
Then I think of someone who may have lost their ability to speak but who can still write great songs. AI could present their old voice on the new songs … but for me, I’d rather give the song to someone with a great voice and be proud that I was able to write it for them.
Well put Saskia. It is a subject that needs discussing and your solution for the challenges and competition are spot on. I listen to lots of different styles of music, I have a huge vinyl and Cd collection, as well as subscribing to streaming channels. (That’s another contentious subject in itself) so I’m sure a lot of what I listen to rubs off and inspires my songwriting. Sort of an unconscious AI. I’m very fortunate to have friends who are excellent musicians and vocalists who enjoy performing and recording my songs, and you are correct, nothing beats live performance. However, none of them are professionals and have lives to lead, so getting together is difficult, and there are only a limited number of songs I can produce this way. I suspect most TisTers aren’t as fortunate as me. At 72, I’ve been writing songs for over 50 years, and since joining TisT in Dec 2021 I must have written well over another 50 songs, so I’ve got a lot of material. I make no apologies to having started to use Band in a Box recently, as I personally don’t consider it AI. What constitutes AI? Band in a Box does not generate lyrics or arrangements. You still have to do that personally. What it does give you is what it says on the box – a band. It will interpret you arrangement, your song in a similar way to you hiring a musician to come into a studio and back your song. It will never replace the skill of a real musician but it’s the next best thing. So I’m glad that you are allowing it’s use in the competitions etc. I have a similar attitude to auto tune. If I am putting my music out there, whether as a release or a challenge, I want it to be as good as I can make it. Granted, I could keep doing take after take or punching in, but that all takes time. A program like Melodyne just speeds up the process. It’s not AI as I see it. Time, unfortunately, is not something that’s in my favour at my age, so I want to get as much done as I can, while I still can and I’ll use what’s at my disposal. But I will never use AI generated lyrics or melodies. I love songwriting too much!! Sorry about the length of this post, I could carry on but I’ll leave it at that. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going to go back in, so we will just have to learn to live with it. Keep up the good work Saskia, and look forward to seeing you again soon.
Hi Folks.
So, I accept that I am a Lyricist and not a Songwriter.
However; I think I prefer…
Lyricist/AI assisted songwriter.
Not because it sounds more pretentious, but rather because I know I can’t be the only lyricist who knows how hard it is to produce an acceptable AI assisted song, to lyrics that you want to be portrayed in a particular manner.
I believe that there is room for both assisted and non assisted production of songs in today’s world, indeed, I think it’s a step forward in our field, regardless of, if we agree or disagree with this evolution.
Maybe I’m suggesting a new title for what we are, but I totally agree with the importance of transparency of any AI involvement in producing songs.
It’s clearly easier to write lyrics than it is music and whilst I write 5-6 songs per week, I accept that it is highly unlikely that I could get even close to that if I had to write lyrics and music, plus play an instrument and sing.
Oh and by the way, I have listened to a fair bit of fully produced AI and assisted AI songs/music and I can tell you, that there is a lot of absolute rubbish out there that I would not want my name to be associated with.
Thank you for this reflection, Saskia. You are offering a balanced response to the growing presence of AI and setting clear boundaries. I respect your effort to include everyone.
If I were talking only to people who approach things similarly to the way I do, I would say that I expect a platform dedicated to songwriters to prioritize exchange between people who write both lyrics and music, or people working in teams. Many songwriters perform their own songs, which makes them singer songwriters. If you do not have competence in one of the three areas then you should team up with another human so your work can exist, organically. I do think that ultimately, the song should get to a point where it can be performed live by one person or more. The lead voice should always be performed by a human (all other technological assistance acceptable).
Firstly, to have £95,000 to spend on recording my Songs would be like winning the lottery no matter if AI was used or not within the recording process.
I guess every modern recording studio will have access to this technology and will apply it to the recording process.
Recording with ‘live musicians’ within this environment will, by definition, be using and be subject too some form of AI enhancement as the recorded sounds and vocals go through the Digital Systems – or maybe they might use an old 24 Track Reel-to-reel tape machine coupled to an Analog-desk – maybe that’s away of almost avoiding using AI
However, to use AI to simply generate a set of lyrics from a Song Title or idea would be for me too mechanical – follow this by then inputting some Piano-Guitar Chords – Key Signatures – Styles – Rhythms to these lyrics is not why I’m a Singer-songwriter.
It would be an interesting experiment to ‘generate’ a Song this way and I would certainly play around with this idea if I ever have this Technology at my finger tips.
However, for me ‘Songs’ are expressions of the Soul, for me these ‘gems ’of creativity come from ‘another place’ and it’s our job, as Songwriters to capture them, pull them in, give them life and share them with others -it’s bringing those emotions, those feelings, those experiences – the happy times, the times of sadness and grief and then mould them into a structure which we all recognise as being ‘a song’ and hopefully, if we’re lucky another person might like the Song, take solace from it – it might make them happy, it might trigger an emotion or bring back a memory or they might simply Sing along and enjoy the moment – 🎸🎹🎤🎶
Great idea to create a separate category for AI in the Song Contest – just a thought what happens if that AI Song becomes the ultimate Winner what will happen then Saskia 🤔
Ahaha – it would be hard to take the AI agent to Abbey Road for it’s main prize! I appreciate what you shared Terry, I too see songs as little droplets of people’s souls. With the winner in the AI category, I will at the very least send them a plaque for their wall. It’s a new world and we are all just beginning to find our way forwards with it, but some things won’t change.
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Having read your article and comments, particularly around the competition, It seems to me that you’ve struck the right balance. AI is here to stay and we can embrace the elements that suit us, to enhance our work or not. Having a specific category is a good idea (There could be a zillion entries for that)! It’s also good that we can acknowledge any AI input into traditional category.
I can’t see me using AI to create either lyrics or melodies, but it’s always good to have options. Very much looking forward to the next chapter.
Thanks Cath. Someone actually wrote to me recently and offered to teach us more about it. I am skeptical of any AI in the realm of music, but I’m curious too! AI input will not be allowed in the traditional categories in the annual contest, but for now we will allow it in the monthly challenges as long as they are clearly labelled. I hope we can all approach this with a fun sense of curiousity.
Apologies, I confused the competition and challenge re AI input. I try to embrace change always (even when it feels painful) it’s usually a great learning experience
Ok, so I get that this is probably all down to me and my introduction of AI generated music and vocals, but hey, it was going to happen at some point right?
I can see both sides to be honest.
If AI was just about producing a complete song without any major input by the producer (which can be the case) then personally, I would have no interest in it whatsoever.
But it isn’t.
I love writing lyrics, but again, wouldn’t bother if I was unable to transform them into song.
I don’t sing and I don’t play an instrument, however, at 70yrs of age, I am so happy to say that music has kept me motivated to deal with whatever life throws at me and keeps us ‘all’ young, doesn’t it. Hell, only a couple of weeks ago I was out with 15 people of more than half my age and I was dancing away with the best of them and staying young and that is part of life my friends.
I would never consider creating songs that are ‘fully’ AI generated..just no point to me.
Of course live music will always supersede anything that AI can produce (for now) however, as Saskia points out, it can’t draw on one’s own life experiences to create the emotion you may want to portray when writing your own lyrics…or can it?
The beauty of it for me is that as AI develops, you can instruct it to produce more and more to match you vision, including; Style of music (genre’s) type of voice..male or female..what instruments you wish to include, (or, leave out ) melodies..tones…emotions..moods.etc…You can instruct it when to take a musical break within your song and add a bridge to a verse if required. It is truly amazing.
As I have previously mentioned, I only started writing lyrics in Oct and now have a 50 song
library. This was far from easy as over 2200 versions of what I was trying to achieve were trashed by me. Starting to write at 9am in the morning and still trying to complete a song at 3am, which I do on a regular basis, should indicate that as long as you are writing your own lyrics, the amount of time spent getting to the end result is probably just as satisfying as that which an artist would feel.
All you guys who write, play, sing and produce your own songs are amazing and you feel great when you complete your song, right? Well, I’m here to inform you that I know how you feel!
Yes, the best lyrics are made up of one’s own life experiences and I have written some pretty harrowing songs, believe me, but that doesn’t always result in a great song, regardless of the applied music imo.
Indeed, apart from artists like Adele, as an example, most hit songs today are made up of pretty rubbish lyrics, which is such a shame.
Look, I totally get, that Talent is Timeless may not have envisioned, or, thought of, the possible requirement to branch into AI as well, I mean, who knew? Right?
For me I do not like the idea of fully produced AI songs including AI lyrics, but of course I do advocate that AI is a massive influence in the music world already.
Final opinion…not easy to police, but I would support AI songs to be included on this site, but only if song lyrics are produced by the member.
All very interesting though, isn’t it.
I’m interested to know whether you or the AI creates the melody. Are you the Bernie Taupin to AI’s Elton John, or do you create the melody and then get the AI to perform it in your chosen style of band and singer?
Hey Rob.
Wouldn’t it be great to be another Bernie Taupin (in the AI sense of course). You can create melodies and instruct AI give you as many different samples as that (when you become a paid member..around £25pm) and you can also change the style of voice, tones etc….but I’m not techy enough to have learnt how to master that as yet. So, I instruct as to the genre, which you can tweak after every version that is produced, until you are happy. You can also tell it what instruments to include..the type of melody (and hope for the best) etc..and even mid song, you can change instruments. Apparently, it is also possible to overlay music to your lyrics from 2 completely different AI music generators..again too techy for at the mo.
Rick – I understand the reasons why as a lyric-writing non-musician you should want to use AI software. I appreciate the time you are putting into the process to produce the songs, and I accept that there is plenty of input from you. However, I don’t think you should dismiss the idea that you are too old to produce your own real music. I’m a 73 year old, and I’ve only been writing and performing the last few years. I know a number of people of my age who have taken up a simple instrument like a ukulele, and have successfully written songs. If you don’t have any trust in your singing ability, you could get someone else to do the singing. Making music with others is in my view the greatest pleasure.
Thanks for the encouragement Paul.
I tried to play guitar when I was a boy and was improving, but then life stuff took over and I never went back to it. These days, my fat arthritic fingers would make it a real challenge. My stepson has the gift though..he taught himself to play the guitar and piano, proficiently, in only 6 months. He’s going to be a star at some point. I used to have a fair singing voice as well and probably wasted opportunities back then.
This current venture is giving me great pleasure however and indeed, only last night, I finished a song which is probably my fav to date and that, is def a great feeling.
Good luck with all if your future compositions Paul.
A good article. Personally, I am not a fan of AI in any creative pursuit. It is starting to creep into not only music but photography, video and writing, too. As a photographer myself, I had to earn my LDPS post-nominals. As a musician, I had to earn my ABRSM certificates. These skills took years of dedication. Granted that I use a computer to polish these skills, which wasn’t available when I started and can be a valuable tool in the toolbox. However, I wouldn’t like to see AI overtaking talent and creativity.
I also hardly ever listen to recorded music, I way prefer the interaction of musician to audience, whether I’m the one on stage or the one listening. Thanks for being so thoughtful about this. I never use pitch correction, even if maybe I’m singing a little flat once in awhile. I prefer gritty honesty, personally. In fact, when I hear pitch correction in a recording, I tend to skip over it to the next song…boy, am I ever biased!! I just can’t stand the sound of perfection, I find it so boring. I’d rather hear someone taking it to the limit of their ability than someone playing it safe. I know that’s just me, I’ve had this discussion with many people. Conclusion: I’m glad there is a separate category for AI, I’ll NEVER use it, but I don’t want to put down anyone who does. It’s just not for me personally.
Thank you Saskia. I totally endorse that the energy of live recorded music captures something intangibly magical. I’m so glad the subject of AI has and is continuing to be addressed. I am also really pleased that the competition has made provisions for this too and that it has been handled so well. Sorry for the very long comment, however this is something I feel very strongly about. It’s interesting to hear that Rick feels he probably gets the same satisfaction after spending a great deal of time and effort completing his song and I am glad to hear that. I have been very much against AI in this capacity, without having enough knowledge or experience to verify my feelings about it. However, recently, I used a website which gave me the opportunity to explore and produce a 60 second song using basic tools free of charge. If I wanted to buy the complete version, then I would need to pay but it’s not a great deal. It’s my only experience, so I can’t report on other more adept and versatile software. My AI experience shook me as I was really pleased with it, however, it didn’t remotely touch the satisfaction and fulfillment or excitement I felt when I composed a complete song of my own. It wasn’t written musically or lyrically in the way would write. (I could chose between 2 genres). However, I could hear it had the potential to be more commercially appealing to the general public than my own songs would and if I pursued this way of writing, I would be much more confident that these songs would draw in more interest, be more popular and be more widely heard. However, AI really doesn’t cut it for me, even though lyrically the AI song, was more succinct and expressed what I wanted to say perfectly (I put in several words & phrases) – and the melody was catchy and more commercially appealing than I could have written. From my perspective, this would be a great way of me learning how to write more commercial songs and pick up tips from AI in this way but I could do this with any non AI generated song I wanted to learn from. However, this isn’t what drives me to write. I write to hit that magic spot inside me that makes me light up for weeks after I’ve written a song, as I sing it and perform it and that for me cannot be replicated by using AI as it’s not my own independent achievement, which is what gives me the buzz. However, I do believe that the industry is already infiltrated by many AI songs, I can often sense a certain type of sound or feeling it gives me that I know does not come directly from a human. I feel the success and money making side of this for artists will be very appealing and effective. From my perspective, music comes from the heart and soul, and this connection is lost when using this technology, it loses an unquantifiable quality that touches a deep part of the human psyche. The vibration of music can be very healing (scientifically proven) and I would be interested to learn of future experiments using AI produced songs to ascertain if this would still be the case. There is no doubt that this the direction the industry is heading and maybe in time AI will be able to generate a genuine sense of human emotions with it’s creations, if it hasn’t already, or as it’s constantly refined. I haven’t enough knowledge or experience to comment beyond what I have yet to experience.
Hi Louise, well said.
Thanks Saskia for recognising the issues around this and taking prompt steps to set out some rules around it.
I’d just like to throw in a little of my own opinion on the matter and in particular how I feel it relates to TisT.
I have only been here a few months but my main reason for joing was that this site is all about song-writing … I see that as a discipline very distinct from arrangement, production, recording or even performance and musicianship.
Look at how many fantastic songs that have been written by those who never had or even tried to have careers as musicians or performers, let alone as arrangers, producers or mixing engineers.
My point is that is we are really focusing on songwriting here then we shouldnt worry at all if we can’t play an instrument or cant sing, and cant produce or record. And therefore it shouldnt matter at all if we chose to use other tools to do that part of the work for us. Yes I am taking the argument one step further to say that I don’t have any objection to AI being used even to generate a sung vocal line … as long as the lyrics and melody it is singing were written by a human, this is really not too far removed from the songwriter hiring a session vocalist to create their demo …
Where the line is drawn for me, is if the lyrics or melody of a song are created by articificial means. I know you have spoken, Saskia, about how wonderful it is to hear a live performance, but that is actually a step beyond the writing of the song. In my opinion, if this site is purely about songwriting, then it should concern itself with whether the writer has created the melody and the lyrics (if it is not an instrumental!), and to some extent the arrangement (in terms of chords and harmonies) – but after that point, it shouldnt really matter who or what is used to perform, produce, and engineer the final product. As purely songwriters we are essentially creating demos of our work in order to get it heard – if we need to use certain tools or hire other people to achieve that, then fine, as long as we the humans write the tune and words, then we are the songwriters ….
Just my thoughts anyway !
Well expressed Tony and I resonate strongly with everything you have said.
Thank you for sharing a reasonable perspective and reminding everyone what it means to be a songwriter. I agree with your analysis.
Wow, that was so well written, Saskia!! I’m with you 100%. Good arguments pro and con. Well done and well balanced.
Interesting comments from you guys and I totally get, understand and appreciate all of them. Opinion diversity can be a wonderful thing. I do completely agree that AI is in no way comparable to human performance and it’s pretty likely that if I could play and/or sing, I would be totally against it. It is incredibly concerning where AI in general is leading our planet, let alone our music.
I’m not convinced that appreciating flaws in what is produced would sit well with me though, if I was in the position of being a singer/songwriter. If my main goal was/is to share music and to hopefully bring a feelgood vibe to the listener, as well as myself, then I’d want the end result to sound the best quality that it could. It’s all well and good to accept our flaws, but I wouldn’t want to share those flaws with others, if I could help it.
Writing a song does not have to be about being the full package in one’s endevours as a songwriter. Nobody said that you must be able to produce your own music, melodies, tones and genre’s to become a lyricist..that’s just a very biased sounding opinion to me.
Again, I have to say, that I am a novice as far as AI is concerned and I ‘am’ against it in general terms.
However, there is a bigger picture here that none of us can change and consequently, platforms like this one gives you guys the opportunity to continue expressing your music in the hard earned way that it always has been. Clearly the over 50’s brigade ( understandably) prefer to keep it that way and nobody should be able to take that away from you.
In 20 years time though, the nostalgia surrounding that thinking, is going to apply to AI produced music. You don’t have to agree with it, or, like it, but it’s going to happen.
So, I will continue to be somewhat selfish in making my life more bearable by writing lyrics and using AI assistance to help me feel like I’m not too old to acomplish some self satisfaction in my life.
Rick, I feel that some of your comments were directed towards me so I would like to take this chance to clarify my meaning some more.
You say that being “able to produce your own music, melodies, tones and genre’s to become a lyricist” is a biased opinion … but that isnt the opinion that I expressed at all.
What I said was to be called a songwriter you must create as a minimum a melody (and lyrics if the song is not an instrumental).
In saying that I am purely talking about the definition of the word ‘songwriter’ , and am making no value judgement about the skills or artistry of a lyricist versus a composer.
There are many many awesome lyricists, ranging from Oscar Hammerstein, through Tim Rice and Bernie Taupin – but they would not call themselves songwriters.
Again I will make the point that I am not saying songwriters or composers are any greater in any way than lyricists, and I personally think your own lyrics are fantastic. So let’s get away from this idea that I am saying you are “lesser” than anyone else here because you don’t write music. My point remains, that this site has been primarily a “songwriting” site, and that means to most people what I have defined above. That was the initial reason that I asked you to make it clear that you were the lyricist in your works rather than taking credit in the comments for all the people praising your musical composition.
You seem to have assumed I have said you have to be able to play an instrument, sing, arrange, produce and engineer your work, but read my post again and you will see I have specifically said you do not need to do that.
I never intended to cause an arument here, but I do feel you have taken me out of context and I hope I have now clarified my points.
Finally to answer you point about AI being the future, I have never once denied this. I have worked in technology all my life, both in music studios and software development, and I use AI to create videos to accompany my songs. Studio technology has automated many engineering tasks (often spearheded by innovations of great engineers, likethose amazing guys at Abbey Road) but now that it starts to encroach into songwriting, we start to get a little worried …. We have seen many changes in the music industry since most of us were first writing and/or performing and will continue to see changes, wherether or not anyone sees them for the better or worse.
You call yourself a young 70, personally I am an ancient grumpy old 62 who, whilst happy to embrace what may come after I’m gone, still prefer to have clarity about things are and I think that is what this debate os bringing about. So please don’t take things as personal digs at you, we are all artists and all (i suspect) to a greater or lesser extent a little precious about our work 😉
Thanks Saskia, perfect response and the plans for the Competition to enable a level playing field seem appropriate. I have read the responses below and can appreciate all the opinions, there does need to be a place of course for lyricists who are not musicians. I personally love the editing process when writing lyrics to fit the melody, and would hate to be able to press a button and it is done automatically!
I think the approach you are taking makes sense and ensures it is clear what we are listening to and how it has been produced. As a singer and guitar player who always composes by writing the music first and lyrics second I don’t see me using AI any time soon but I can see the attraction for lyric writers who don’t sing/play.
Saskia, I like the idea of the addition of a separate AI category. I, like your live vs paint by numbers test group, prefer the energy that comes from live performances. I was happy to hear you addressing this issue. When I hear someone say they are playing an original, I assume they wrote the song in it’s entirety – lyrics, melody, rhythm, etc. It makes sense to separate the categories. Good solution.
I’ve been a little upset with this topic ever since a friend showed me how he completed a book using CHATGPT to complete some of his writing. I thought, “then you’re not writing it. Publish it under CHATGPT, it’s not yours.” There are some great bands out there that have to use autotune because their main writer/singer can’t hold a tune, but man can they write, so I don’t really have a problem with that. But when it reaches the point where the AI is singing for you, I have a bit of a problem.
Is it cool … hell yeah, it’s very interesting, but, as you so nicely put in your article, there’s nothing like a live band in a studio and the warmth that you feel from those recordings of talented musicians all working together.
Then I think of someone who may have lost their ability to speak but who can still write great songs. AI could present their old voice on the new songs … but for me, I’d rather give the song to someone with a great voice and be proud that I was able to write it for them.
Well put Saskia. It is a subject that needs discussing and your solution for the challenges and competition are spot on. I listen to lots of different styles of music, I have a huge vinyl and Cd collection, as well as subscribing to streaming channels. (That’s another contentious subject in itself) so I’m sure a lot of what I listen to rubs off and inspires my songwriting. Sort of an unconscious AI. I’m very fortunate to have friends who are excellent musicians and vocalists who enjoy performing and recording my songs, and you are correct, nothing beats live performance. However, none of them are professionals and have lives to lead, so getting together is difficult, and there are only a limited number of songs I can produce this way. I suspect most TisTers aren’t as fortunate as me. At 72, I’ve been writing songs for over 50 years, and since joining TisT in Dec 2021 I must have written well over another 50 songs, so I’ve got a lot of material. I make no apologies to having started to use Band in a Box recently, as I personally don’t consider it AI. What constitutes AI? Band in a Box does not generate lyrics or arrangements. You still have to do that personally. What it does give you is what it says on the box – a band. It will interpret you arrangement, your song in a similar way to you hiring a musician to come into a studio and back your song. It will never replace the skill of a real musician but it’s the next best thing. So I’m glad that you are allowing it’s use in the competitions etc. I have a similar attitude to auto tune. If I am putting my music out there, whether as a release or a challenge, I want it to be as good as I can make it. Granted, I could keep doing take after take or punching in, but that all takes time. A program like Melodyne just speeds up the process. It’s not AI as I see it. Time, unfortunately, is not something that’s in my favour at my age, so I want to get as much done as I can, while I still can and I’ll use what’s at my disposal. But I will never use AI generated lyrics or melodies. I love songwriting too much!! Sorry about the length of this post, I could carry on but I’ll leave it at that. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going to go back in, so we will just have to learn to live with it. Keep up the good work Saskia, and look forward to seeing you again soon.
Hi Folks.
So, I accept that I am a Lyricist and not a Songwriter.
However; I think I prefer…
Lyricist/AI assisted songwriter.
Not because it sounds more pretentious, but rather because I know I can’t be the only lyricist who knows how hard it is to produce an acceptable AI assisted song, to lyrics that you want to be portrayed in a particular manner.
I believe that there is room for both assisted and non assisted production of songs in today’s world, indeed, I think it’s a step forward in our field, regardless of, if we agree or disagree with this evolution.
Maybe I’m suggesting a new title for what we are, but I totally agree with the importance of transparency of any AI involvement in producing songs.
It’s clearly easier to write lyrics than it is music and whilst I write 5-6 songs per week, I accept that it is highly unlikely that I could get even close to that if I had to write lyrics and music, plus play an instrument and sing.
Oh and by the way, I have listened to a fair bit of fully produced AI and assisted AI songs/music and I can tell you, that there is a lot of absolute rubbish out there that I would not want my name to be associated with.
Thank you for this reflection, Saskia. You are offering a balanced response to the growing presence of AI and setting clear boundaries. I respect your effort to include everyone.
If I were talking only to people who approach things similarly to the way I do, I would say that I expect a platform dedicated to songwriters to prioritize exchange between people who write both lyrics and music, or people working in teams. Many songwriters perform their own songs, which makes them singer songwriters. If you do not have competence in one of the three areas then you should team up with another human so your work can exist, organically. I do think that ultimately, the song should get to a point where it can be performed live by one person or more. The lead voice should always be performed by a human (all other technological assistance acceptable).
Firstly, to have £95,000 to spend on recording my Songs would be like winning the lottery no matter if AI was used or not within the recording process.
I guess every modern recording studio will have access to this technology and will apply it to the recording process.
Recording with ‘live musicians’ within this environment will, by definition, be using and be subject too some form of AI enhancement as the recorded sounds and vocals go through the Digital Systems – or maybe they might use an old 24 Track Reel-to-reel tape machine coupled to an Analog-desk – maybe that’s away of almost avoiding using AI
However, to use AI to simply generate a set of lyrics from a Song Title or idea would be for me too mechanical – follow this by then inputting some Piano-Guitar Chords – Key Signatures – Styles – Rhythms to these lyrics is not why I’m a Singer-songwriter.
It would be an interesting experiment to ‘generate’ a Song this way and I would certainly play around with this idea if I ever have this Technology at my finger tips.
However, for me ‘Songs’ are expressions of the Soul, for me these ‘gems ’of creativity come from ‘another place’ and it’s our job, as Songwriters to capture them, pull them in, give them life and share them with others -it’s bringing those emotions, those feelings, those experiences – the happy times, the times of sadness and grief and then mould them into a structure which we all recognise as being ‘a song’ and hopefully, if we’re lucky another person might like the Song, take solace from it – it might make them happy, it might trigger an emotion or bring back a memory or they might simply Sing along and enjoy the moment – 🎸🎹🎤🎶
Great idea to create a separate category for AI in the Song Contest – just a thought what happens if that AI Song becomes the ultimate Winner what will happen then Saskia 🤔
Ahaha – it would be hard to take the AI agent to Abbey Road for it’s main prize! I appreciate what you shared Terry, I too see songs as little droplets of people’s souls. With the winner in the AI category, I will at the very least send them a plaque for their wall. It’s a new world and we are all just beginning to find our way forwards with it, but some things won’t change.